A game of Dreaming

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Winnah
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Post by Winnah »

PennyShaman wrote: Now, I should have mentioned something else: Each character has a Nemesis to begin with, a reflection of their fears and capabilities. Do you have any ideas of what form that might take for this fellow?
Hubris and Nemesis walk hand in hand, according to the Greeks.

Maybe it could be a manifestation of the un-reason and fear this dreamer seeks to transmit to others...But an opponent with the same abilities and larger ability scores is probably not that interesting, at least not as a reccuring plot element. Fighting Obama, the gay, communist, Chinese, Muslim, may be entertaining for a one shot game though.

Option 2 is a Nemesis capable of stripping away the Dreamers valourous Image, or at least granting others the ability to see through it. The Nemesis should also be able to counter the manipulative abilities of the Dreamer in order to subject him to shame and ridicule. Such a Nemisis could take the form of a very drunk and foul tempered Christopher Hitchens.
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Post by PennyShaman »

Winnah wrote: Hubris and Nemesis walk hand in hand, according to the Greeks.

Maybe it could be a manifestation of the un-reason and fear this dreamer seeks to transmit to others...But an opponent with the same abilities and larger ability scores is probably not that interesting, at least not as a reccuring plot element. Fighting Obama, the gay, communist, Chinese, Muslim, may be entertaining for a one shot game though.

Option 2 is a Nemesis capable of stripping away the Dreamers valourous Image, or at least granting others the ability to see through it. The Nemesis should also be able to counter the manipulative abilities of the Dreamer in order to subject him to shame and ridicule. Such a Nemisis could take the form of a very drunk and foul tempered Christopher Hitchens.
Hah, that gave me a few ideas, and a few giggles. I'll get working on him right away, actually. It'll have an interesting spin, from a normal perhaps more wanton Nemesis; helpful to anyone except your poor dreamer.
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Orion
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Post by Orion »

Arts and Artforms are confusing me. I keep forgetting which is which, and again, too many capital A's on the page makes my eyes swim. I recommend Arts and Forms.
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Post by PennyShaman »

Orion wrote:Arts and Artforms are confusing me. I keep forgetting which is which, and again, too many capital A's on the page makes my eyes swim. I recommend Arts and Forms.
Fixed, thanks for pointing it out.
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Avoraciopoctules
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

Winnah wrote:
PennyShaman wrote: Now, I should have mentioned something else: Each character has a Nemesis to begin with, a reflection of their fears and capabilities. Do you have any ideas of what form that might take for this fellow?
Hubris and Nemesis walk hand in hand, according to the Greeks.

Maybe it could be a manifestation of the un-reason and fear this dreamer seeks to transmit to others...But an opponent with the same abilities and larger ability scores is probably not that interesting, at least not as a reccuring plot element. Fighting Obama, the gay, communist, Chinese, Muslim, may be entertaining for a one shot game though.

Option 2 is a Nemesis capable of stripping away the Dreamers valourous Image, or at least granting others the ability to see through it. The Nemesis should also be able to counter the manipulative abilities of the Dreamer in order to subject him to shame and ridicule. Such a Nemisis could take the form of a very drunk and foul tempered Christopher Hitchens.
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1695
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Post by PennyShaman »

Avoraciopoctules wrote:
Winnah wrote:
PennyShaman wrote: Now, I should have mentioned something else: Each character has a Nemesis to begin with, a reflection of their fears and capabilities. Do you have any ideas of what form that might take for this fellow?
Hubris and Nemesis walk hand in hand, according to the Greeks.

Maybe it could be a manifestation of the un-reason and fear this dreamer seeks to transmit to others...But an opponent with the same abilities and larger ability scores is probably not that interesting, at least not as a reccuring plot element. Fighting Obama, the gay, communist, Chinese, Muslim, may be entertaining for a one shot game though.

Option 2 is a Nemesis capable of stripping away the Dreamers valourous Image, or at least granting others the ability to see through it. The Nemesis should also be able to counter the manipulative abilities of the Dreamer in order to subject him to shame and ridicule. Such a Nemisis could take the form of a very drunk and foul tempered Christopher Hitchens.
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1695
Heh. I went with the things he may feel the most threatened by. So, a young black female, twisted by nightmares to want to rip off his skin.
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Post by PennyShaman »

Updated the first chapter, hopefully a little easier to understand now. Maybe less? Working nights does make things fuzzier. Look forward to reading more comments when I wake up. :D
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Post by Ikeren »

Can you run through a combat between the Conservative Politician and the Conservative Politicians nemesis; number of coin flips, precise effect on their abilities and ...heart?
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Post by PennyShaman »

Ikeren wrote:Can you run through a combat between the Conservative Politician and the Conservative Politicians nemesis; number of coin flips, precise effect on their abilities and ...heart?
I can indeed. Let that be today's project, now that I'm awake (mostly).
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Post by PennyShaman »

It's a lot more dry around here now, without all those Pools. Updated Chapter 2. Should be a little more legible now. Chugging along, all day long.

In the interest of not wanting to play Winnah's character, Monk will be the playtest character, versus the somewhat spooky Angry Old Monk. Will Monk escape? Die horribly? Win, perhaps? Check Chapter 3's space soon!

Thanks again everyone! :)
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Post by Chamomile »

Gosh, you're chipper.

I've only skimmed, but if I'm reading this right, the dream world doesn't interact with the real world much, correct?
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Post by Winnah »

I'm not bothered if you use the character I made as an example. I was just seeing how difficult it would be to put a character together.

Chargen seems pretty fast, so that is a plus.

I would be interested in seeing how Dreamer characters interact with their enviroment, drive the plot and resolve challenges. Using an example character as a tool to explain these mechanics would be a lot easier to follow, especially for those unfamiliar with rpg's.
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Post by PennyShaman »

Chamomile wrote:Gosh, you're chipper.

I've only skimmed, but if I'm reading this right, the dream world doesn't interact with the real world much, correct?
Thanks! Perhaps just a bit passionate. And rambling, let's not forget.

You're sort of correct and sort of not. First of all, things in the dreaming and its layers do not physically effect the real world; in theory, if a dreamer interacts with another and they remember it on waking, that might be considered an interaction with the real world. The layer above the "Mansion" level of dreaming, which I call the "Islands" where Gods, Heroes and Spirits dwell may be considered closer to the real world, but that's only because it can be accessed from there.

When dreamers do access the real world (a part of the game I must admit is in production), they will be able to be said to have a physical interaction. What form that might take is still very much up in the air.
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Post by PennyShaman »

Winnah wrote:I'm not bothered if you use the character I made as an example. I was just seeing how difficult it would be to put a character together.

Chargen seems pretty fast, so that is a plus.

I would be interested in seeing how Dreamer characters interact with their enviroment, drive the plot and resolve challenges. Using an example character as a tool to explain these mechanics would be a lot easier to follow, especially for those unfamiliar with rpg's.
Thanks, and I was actually hoping I could eventually use Old CP here in Chapter 3. I'll wait for a complete rendition of that for when I have 4 characters ready, and can do a proper example of how a group might play. For now, I'm afraid it's just Monk Theater.
Last edited by PennyShaman on Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by PennyShaman »

That took a lot longer than excepted, but I suppose I was distracted somehow.

Anyways, chapter 3 has an example of a very simple combat now. Enjoy, everyone!
Last edited by PennyShaman on Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by PennyShaman »

Voice is posted. The more esoteric effects I'm having a bit more trouble balancing and making mechanics for, so I'm specifically asking for comments and constructive criticism. Thank in advance! :D
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Orion
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Post by Orion »

You should really add a brief explanation of how Hearts are HP, Thoughts are MP, and Pulse is action points before you list out all the arts. Otherwise the explanations of what various arts cost is confusing as hell.
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Post by Orion »

I'll be posting the Innocent later today. Meanwhile, my first impressions of your example combat: I will say that all the mechanics feel very thematic and interesting, but I worry that there may be too many of them. If I want to attack some fool, there's 2 rolls guaranteed: an Attack roll and a Soak roll. That's the standard for dicepool games around here, such as After Sundown but in practice it looks like there will nearly always be at least one additional roll required to resolve a basic attack. Two people standing still trading blows and blocking will be making 1 Attack roll and 2 Block rolls per attack, or a total of 3 checks. Most of us who've played Shadowrun 4E found 3 rolls per attack to be a little much. Furthermore, movement in this system is effectively an additional attack roll, since it determines whether the attack you've already declared actually hits. So in the worst case scenario of charging someone who's kiting you, resolving a single basic attack actually look like Attack roll, Attack Roll, Dodge Roll, Soak Roll, Soak Roll. Which frankly seems a little excessive.

EDIT: Does a Nemesis deliberately get substandard arts? Question looks like it's low/high rather than medium/high. Also, if Rage arts that fail to do damage have no effect, how does Decay work? Anyway, my intuition tells me that everyone is going to want High damage on their first rage form. Against people trying to block, having a more reliable ability to produce the effect and well as doing more damage seems better than just possibly generating a bigger effect if lucky. Divide, Thrust, and Freeze all work well as coup-de-grace against an impaired enemy, but if players only start with one attack they'll want it to be as reliable as possible. I predict frequent requests for custom forms that invert those three.

EDIT: oh, I get it. Things with unlisted damage get "low" damage, not "no" damage. Same for Range, presumably?
Last edited by Orion on Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Orion »

The Innocent Prisoner

No one is quite sure what horrible fate she suffered in reality, not even she herself. The dream is the expression of her drive for freedom and escape. She constantly seeks novelty and movement. Able to fly as a bird, shrink away ,and bolt form conflict, she is almost impossible to pin down. Her yellow eye reveals hidden paths and objects with a capacity to be opened or moved. However, she has brought some measure of her cage with her. She always appears a little bit hazy and distant, her voice crackles like a fading radio signal, and she feels numbed and insulated, able to freely observe but not participate. She also fears and avoid direct confrontation, and lacks a stable sense of identity, because such opposition and introspection threatens to collapse her dream of freedom. She is mostly unable to effectively destroy or oppose a threat by herself, choosing to simply flee when she is alone. In a group of dreamers, she functions as a guide and vicarious thrillseeker, inspiring them to motion and helping them seek out their own desires.

Design Intent: My first thought with this character was to keep her imprisoned even within the dream, largely unable to move freely but with an array of long-range arts to manipulate things from a distance. There's a common video game trope of an imprisoned pyschic girl who advises and guides you to her jailer. But ultimately, that seemed more appropriate as an archetype than a full-fledged PC. As a player character, she neemed to be more proactive, so I inverted her and made her dream-self maximally "free." Her Nemesis, the Hanged Martyr, will explore the other side of the archetype, rarely confronting her directly but constantly harrying her from afar.

Desire 2 (detached) | Hearts 4
Will 2 | (nervous) Thoughts 7
Image 5 (carefree) | Pulse 7
Virtue: Purity

Rage 1 : Decay
Love 1 : Gentle
Voice 3 : Longing
Absorb 1: Shrink
Judge 2: Blind
Eye 2: Yellow
Shift 3: Bolt
Change 4: Ring
Body 1: Bird

Nemesis: The Martyr

The Martyr is a bishounen with the trappings of a religious amrtyr and/or a political prisoner. He always appears inside a barred cell, and has no discernible means of movement. He is often crucified, hung upside down, or otherwise tormented, though at other times he is free to pace and write. He takes his justification in suffering for the Cause, and thus seeks to rebuke and humiliate anyone who wishes to avoid pain, especially the Innocent, whom he views as a traitor. He writes and distributes "pamphlets" that are actually just weird drawing on single sheets, but that nonetheless seem to spread violence and agitation. His bitter voice sometimes expresses his contempt for the faithless, but at other times he appears to become a vessel for the Warden, who uses him to taunt the Innocent.

Desire 3| Hearts 6
Will 3 | Thoughts 9
Image 6 | Pulse 6
Vice: Envy Virtue: Integrity

Rage 1: Shock (High Range, Medium Damage)
Voice 2: Bitter (High Range, Medium Potency)
Absorb 1: Passion-play (High illuminate Will, medium generate Thoughts)
Judge 1 : Faithless (Locks Absorb (H), Medium Range) [Long with Integrity]
Eye 1 :Fuchsia (High range, Medium Detail Image)
Change 5: Pen (High Unlock Judge, Medium Illuminate Desire)
Body 1: Lamb (High Size, Medium Concealment)
Last edited by Orion on Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:51 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by PennyShaman »

Orion wrote:I'll be posting the Innocent later today. Meanwhile, my first impressions of your example combat: I will say that all the mechanics feel very thematic and interesting, but I worry that there may be too many of them. If I want to attack some fool, there's 2 rolls guaranteed: an Attack roll and a Soak roll. That's the standard for dicepool games around here, such as After Sundown but in practice it looks like there will nearly always be at least one additional roll required to resolve a basic attack. Two people standing still trading blows and blocking will be making 1 Attack roll and 2 Block rolls per attack, or a total of 3 checks. Most of us who've played Shadowrun 4E found 3 rolls per attack to be a little much. Furthermore, movement in this system is effectively an additional attack roll, since it determines whether the attack you've already declared actually hits. So in the worst case scenario of charging someone who's kiting you, resolving a single basic attack actually look like Attack roll, Attack Roll, Dodge Roll, Soak Roll, Soak Roll. Which frankly seems a little excessive.

EDIT: Does a Nemesis deliberately get substandard arts? Question looks like it's low/high rather than medium/high. Also, if Rage arts that fail to do damage have no effect, how does Decay work? Anyway, my intuition tells me that everyone is going to want High damage on their first rage form. Against people trying to block, having a more reliable ability to produce the effect and well as doing more damage seems better than just possibly generating a bigger effect if lucky. Divide, Thrust, and Freeze all work well as coup-de-grace against an impaired enemy, but if players only start with one attack they'll want it to be as reliable as possible. I predict frequent requests for custom forms that invert those three.

EDIT: oh, I get it. Things with unlisted damage get "low" damage, not "no" damage. Same for Range, presumably?
Thanks for the comment! Let's see if I can cover all the points you made.

First of all, you're right. A basic attack will require at least two throws, possibly 3. If someone is targeted by a Rage Art and does not use Absorb, they still use they Hearts to 'soak' damage as you put it. Absorb Arts reduce or eliminate the damage dealt with Rage Arts, can can be effective against more than one attack, if their abilities go in that direction.

I did this because without the soak mechanic, Hearts vanish dangerously quickly; this seems to set it at a pretty reliable rate. It does, I admit, add more throws and thus take longer, but I'm hoping it makes up for it by being intuitive enough and keeping the pace right.

You also noticed that there are a lot of actions that can be done, and even movement requires a throw. This is to reflect that even trivial things in the real world require effort and concentration in the dream. This may make it appear like lots of things can happen in an instant, but the economy of actions (Pulse) requires one plan their actions so as not to leave themselves vulnerable in later instants.

The example you put does seem excessive, but it would happen more like this:

1 - Person A charging throws for his Shift Form, determines where he moves
2 - Person A and B both use Absorb Arts, determine effects and how much damage is reduced
3 - Person A and B both use Rage Arts, determine damage dealt, and effects if damage overcomes Negate.
4 - Roll Hearts against damage not Negated to determine how much is actually taken.

Person A would have spent 6 Pulse in this instant, while Person B has spent only 4. Five or six throws will have been made (six if Negate does not reduce the damage to 0) which has Person A and B performing 3 and 2 actions respectively.

I suppose what I'm trying to get at is I'm aware there are more throws than in some games, but I'm hoping that keeping things organized will prevent it from being a bog-down, and that the economy of actions will prevent people from constantly having to make five or six throws per turn.

Oh, and an addendum. Range is Low if not mentioned, meaning can only be used 1 step away. As most distances from the playing I've done so far has been small, generally Shift's purpose at getting your close enough to attack has worked pretty well, but I can see how it may be a complication in games that take place over larger distances. Perhaps I'll make a not to avoid doing that? It's something worth bearing in mind at least, thanks.

The difference between High and Low damage is only an average of 2 points, so while it's nice to have Medium of even High in damage, it isn't the end of the world if you do not. That being said, I also want to encourage people to make their own Forms once all the Arts are posted.

Really, make your own Doom Form that deals lots of damage and drains Pulse. The more creations, the merrier. Dreamers begin with Forms with High, Medium, Low, and Low assigned however they wish. They may learn others with something like Medium, Medium, Medium, Low, or literally any other combination eventually, if they look hard enough.

I am actually considering making Revelation based off the act of consciously learning Forms either by being exposed to them directly, or by doing nothing but observing them. The idea I bounced around was where they had to use a Disposition (and 1 Pulse) in the same manner that they would to affect the dream (with the same thresholds) and after doing that three separate times with the same Form, they would learn it, and gain Revelation in that Disposition.

Better than the current system? Yes/no? :D
Last edited by PennyShaman on Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:42 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by PennyShaman »

I really like the concept of this character, especially the personality notes beside her Dispositions. A nice touch I may use.

Her totals for Image based Arts is too high by 1, but otherwise she looks complete.

Her Nemesis works on a slightly different system. You've guessed at some of it, but she would have the same Dispositions as the Innocent + 1. Nemesis start with 0 in all Arts, but, like dreamers, use their Dispositions to determine how many points they have.

The Forms work perfectly, though, well done. Pen, however, uses Medium for Unlocking Judge, Change, and Love Arts, so that Form might have High Illuminate Desire, instead.

If I may be so bold, as its Image is going to be 6, I might suggest creating a Change Art that has an Effect, such as increasing Pulse or Thoughts, to take advantage of the ability to reach higher thresholds. It would allow her some more staying power in combat.

Thanks for the input!
Last edited by PennyShaman on Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Grek »

I feel as though I'm not high enough for this thread to make sense.
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Post by PennyShaman »

Grek wrote:I feel as though I'm not high enough for this thread to make sense.
Only one solution then, eh? ;)

Sorry to anyone who was hoping for lots more material today; I got a new novel. Perhaps I'll work into the night now that that's out of the way.

Thanks again, everyone! :mrgreen:
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Post by Orion »

Okay, presenting your Form effects as high/medium/low is fucked and has to go. I was just about able to live with High range and Low range, even though natural English would suggest "long" and "touch" (or "close" or "short). But if High unlock or low unlock doesn't refer to the degree of locked-ness but the importance of the thing being locked, you're padding out your write-ups in a way that substantially obscures comprehension of individual Forms for the sake of making Form creation guidelines more transparent. The fact that "low" ilumination and effects don't exist ads fuel to the fire. Also, using "effect" when you mean"increase" "grant" or "bestow" is unconscionable, as is using it in place of "remove" "reduce" or "drain." So here is what I recommend:
  • Damage, Restore effects come in High, Medium, and Low.
  • Range comes in Long, Short, and "-"
  • Illumine, Shadow, Grant, and Remove come in Major and Minor
  • Unlock and Lock just are.
  • Control and Potency can use the Damage paradigm or the Effect paradigm, your choice. I personally favor Effect.
Then you have a paragraph on Form creation somewhere and maybe a little chart that says "these are the basic stats for a Form of a given Art. You can spend upgrades one for one to gain a step on any of these progressions. Adding a lock or unlock effects costs N upgrades, readable off of this chart."

Merry Christmas.
Last edited by Orion on Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by PennyShaman »

Orion wrote:Okay, presenting your Form effects as high/medium/low is fucked and has to go. I was just about able to live with High range and Low range, even though natural English would suggest "long" and "touch" (or "close" or "short). But if High unlock or low unlock doesn't refer to the degree of locked-ness but the importance of the thing being locked, you're padding out your write-ups in a way that substantially obscures comprehension of individual Forms for the sake of making Form creation guidelines more transparent. The fact that "low" ilumination and effects don't exist ads fuel to the fire. Also, using "effect" when you mean"increase" "grant" or "bestow" is unconscionable, as is using it in place of "remove" "reduce" or "drain." So here is what I recommend:
  • Damage, Restore effects come in High, Medium, and Low.
  • Range comes in Long, Short, and "-"
  • Illumine, Shadow, Grant, and Remove come in Major and Minor
  • Unlock and Lock just are.
  • Control and Potency can use the Damage paradigm or the Effect paradigm, your choice. I personally favor Effect.
Then you have a paragraph on Form creation somewhere and maybe a little chart that says "these are the basic stats for a Form of a given Art. You can spend upgrades one for one to gain a step on any of these progressions. Adding a lock or unlock effects costs N upgrades, readable off of this chart."

Merry Christmas.
Hmm, well if it's obscuring things and not making sense, I suppose you're right. I'll put some work into changing it over the course of today. You were right, of course; it was simply to make it transparent and easy to make Forms, but I suppose I was working against myself in that respect.

So, I'll do some renaming, and will have to in turn change how I describe the building of Forms, which I think was the resistance I originally had to changing it. Still, you've given me some ideas. Consider it my next project.

Thanks!
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